[wellylug] NZLUG discussion

[Mark Foster]

*much useful if somewhat cynical-looking content snipped*

I'll try to identify specific questions that need answering, and answer
them as best I can.

> To what extent are non-Aucklanders actively involved in the NZLUG? And
> to what extent are non-Aucklanders represented on the committee?

My answer to the first question above is, 'does it matter'?

This is quickly followed by 'there are a number, but i've never bothered
to count'.

Frankly NZLUG as it stands at the moment is represented by those who
actually show interest, and take part.  I've never bothered to audit where
contributors are from, as i've generally assumed that most of them are New
Zealanders - and thats as much as i've ever needed to know.

I know for certain that there are Aucklanders on NZLUG - becuase I live in
Auckland, and i've met a few of them.  I also know theres at least one
active member from Christchurch (Nick Rout) - only because i've
corresponded with him in the past.  Again, 'dunno'.

Answer to the second question: "What Committee" ?

NZLUG is 'coordinated' by those who have stepped up to the mark.  To date,
_noone_ outside of Nic (Technical Admin) [Masterton], myself (Mailing List
Admin) [Auckland] and Scott Newton (Auckland Events coordinator to date)
[Auckland] have ever volunteered.

This is not to say we don't want more input from others (and that is
regardless of where they live). Its just that it simply hasn't happened
yet.

The recent changes with regard to NZLUG have meant that we're trying to
regain a more NZ Wide representation.  Recently we've had some very useful
input from people like Daniel Lawson and Perry Lorier (Both of Hamilton).
Nick Rout (Christchurch) has also joined the forum we've been using to
discuss NZLUG's future.  And i'm actively looking for people from other
parts of NZ to get on board.

However we don't have a 'Committee'.  Decisions of any significance are
always put across the whole list, and input from everywhere is welcome.

> What percentage of ACTIVE members of the NZLUG do NOT live in the
> greater Auckland district?

As above - don't know. Has never mattered.



> I would respectfully suggest that many things have changed since NZLUG
> started - not least being the development of active regional LUGs.
>
> And therefore, the role that a national LUG should have, is to provide
> support and resources for the regional LUGs. It should not function in
> the same way as a regional LUG.
>
> Such a national organisation should have its committee made up of
> elected representatives from the regional LUGs - not just from Auckland;
> and should not have a bias in favour of any particular region.
>


Respectfully in response, whilst this may seem logical, it is also flawed
by the fact that at least a couple of the regional LUGs pre-date the
formation of NZLUG.

NZLUG is not a 'national organisation' in terms of its formal status or
haerarchy.  Its simply a Group for Linux Users of New Zealand.  In the
pure dictionary sense of the words and no more complex than that.

For this reason it has not required a 'committee' to date, nor any sort of
election.  Outside of being a website and mailing list, it doesn't 'exist'
as such.  But because of the website and mailing list, it does have an
existance. And a brand name.


> BTW, any decisions about a NATIONAL LUG should involve persons from all
> the regional LUGs making those decisions - not simply persons from the
> Auckland LUGs!

Again, because noone else from the NZLUG mailing list has ever stepped up
and said they'd like to take on responsibility for NZLUG - this isn't
really on track either.  We have never assumed that NZLUG represents all
NZ LUGs. Thats not where we are.  It is perhaps, something we could aim
for - but as I have said many times, we're NOT trying to represent anyone
but ourselves.
And 'ourselves' is essentially 'participants on the NZLUG mailing list'.
Thats it.

I'm all for a situation where NZLUG _could_ be said to have something of a
nationwide representation.  This is currently not really feasible - but at
the same time this is why I have approached WellyLug. Its something to aim
for.

Noting again, that its simply about being a user group for NZ Linux Users.
Nothing more sinister than that - and NOT a political entity. Just a forum
and resource for Linux Enthusiasts.

> OK - so you're not wanting it to change, or to grow, or to adapt to any
> change or to take on a new role.
>
> That's how I interpret what you've just said.


Not true - thats one interpretation, but looking at it from my side of the
fence, NZLUG has already got a lot of potential in its current state. It
just needs to change the perception that it is anything other than what it
is - a Mailing list, a Website, and a bunch of likeminded people who
participate in either or both.

> To what extent does NZLUG *actively* function as a NATIONAL
> organisation?
>
> What does it do nationally?

Its a mailing list and website. Neither of these are Geographic boundaries.

It has not held events in parts of New Zealand other than Auckland,
primarily because 1) NZLUG participants from other parts of NZ than
Auckland have not yet stuck up their hands to organise something, and 2)
Other Regional LUGs have filled the role of having events in their areas,
which has contributed to the lack of hands raised as relating to 1).

> Um, if it really IS a completely new and separate LUG for Aucklanders,
> then shouldn't AuckLUG's website be http://www.auckland.linux.net.nz and
> its email address be: lug at auckland.linux.net.nz - that is, if AuckLUG
> really IS a completely separate organisation with no direct or indirect
> control over the domain linux.net.nz and has been granted control over
> the use of anything under the domain "auckland.linux.net.nz".
>
> It doesn't make sense for AuckLUG to have an email address that is not a
> part of its own domain.
>

Why not look at it in another light?

The owner of linux.net.nz (Nic Bellamy) has _donated_ the resources of his
DNS and Listserver to AuckLUG.  The domain Linux.net.nz is a _damn good_
domain for Linux related purposes.  Why incurr further cost on any one
individual when we have a perfectly good name just sitting there?

If I recall correctly the NZOSS is or was hosting a mailing list for a
smaller regional LUG.  Doesn't lessen the significance of the LUG involved
at all.

The way I see it 'linux.net.nz' has been made available to support Linux
in New Zealand. Nothing wrong with using it.

aucklug at linux.net.nz - auckland.
nzlug at linux.net.nz - new zealand.

Any other LUG wanting an address under the domain, i'm sure, would simply
have to ask.

Likewise for the subdomains used for web addresses - whatever.linux.net.nz
can easily be mapped to you.

I don't see anything inherently wrong, as AuckLUG and NZLUG have a good
relationship and willingly cooperate with eachother.  This is where i'd
like to see the other LUGs be.

I clarify - NZLUG is not trying to assume any sort of control or power or
anything else.  Simply to become a LUG targetted at ALL NEW ZEALANDERS.
Regional LUGs continue to operate as they choose, with their own
identities and purpose.   Individuals are encouraged to participate in
both NZLUG and their local LUG - one gives them access to a larger
knowledge base and pool of information. The other gives them the support
of their local community and access to location-relevant information and
events.  The two together strengthen our ability to support and promote
Linux across the board.

> Shouldn't it be about co-ordinating and resourcing the regional groups
> of NZers who are into Linux?
>

Not necessarily.
Certainly that is one concept that has been tabled, and theres nothing
wrong with it.  In fact, thats essentially one 'defacto' position.
However I see potential for much more.

To use the NZLUG Wiki as an example.
If a Linux user anywhere in NZ needs help in setting up, say, the Asterisk
PABX.  Theres heaps of documentation on this on the Wiki.
A member of NZLUG will know the information is there and can access it.
A member of a regional LUG may not necessarily know that its there.
Hopefully they will know that the NZLUG resource is there for them.  Thats
what we'd like to achieve. Thats part 1.

Part 2 then gives them the choice of mailing list support:

- Local LUG list - local community support mechanism.
- National LUG list - access to a larger number of people, basically.

>> The main reason its run the way it is now, is that no one else has yet
>> stuck their hands up with suggestions and offers to contribute
>> administratively.  Always happy for that to change :)
>
> Have you asked for the regional LUGs to elect representatives to the
> committee of the NZLUG? Have you given those representatives a REAL say
> in how the NZLUG is run and organised?

Again, at the moment, NZLUG has no 'committee'.
As it is essentially only a mailing list and set of web resources, there
are no major decisions that a 'committee' needs to make.
However, looking forward we are wanting to set up NZLUG so that not only
is it able to be a national resource, but that a component of our
relationship with the regional lugs is an ability to coordinate our
efforts - and this is part of why i'm approaching WellyLug now.

I do have to ask tho - with a functional mailing list and website, and a
Wiki - and an open discussion on the actual NZLUG list being the main
facilitator of any major changes that we undergo anyway (thereby giving
all participants the ability to put in their 2c, and no individual
participant having any more say than anyone else), where is the need for
any formal management? The status quo is working, because, basically, the
LUG is self sustaining. Exactly how it should be, IMHO.




> How would discussions and decisions be made? How would this committee
> meet? Monthly? Quarterly? Electronically?
>
> Just how much do you really want *active* participation and
> decision-making in the NZLUG from representatives of the regional LUGs?
>
> Sorry for all the questions, but I detect an inconsistency in what you
> have said about the NZLUG.

Its quite alright.
I think theres some misconceptions about 'NZLUG' and hopefully some of the
stuff I've put down in this message helps clear it up.

To summarise.

NZLUG is non-incorporated, and informal.
It consists of a Mailing List, Website, and Wiki.
It is currently administered by Three of us:

- Nic Bellamy - providing the web, mail and DNS backend. Also pays for
everything. He owns the domain and was one of the founders of NZLUG
back-in-the-day.
- Mark Foster - Moderates the mailing list (not that it needs it
particularly often) and does other day-to-day admin of the email list
(generally dealing with subscription/unsubscription issues).
- Scott Newton - Has historically coordinated events in Auckland, and
assisted with the approval of articles on the website.  Since the standup
of AuckLUG Scott is now administering AuckLUG, although he still assists
on the NZLUG web page.

Note that the three of us essentially have _no other work to do_ running
NZLUG.  Its mostly a technical exercise. We don't make decisions that
affect the LUG except in the context of 'keeping things working'.

And it does work.

NZLUG is simply all about the website, mailing list and wiki. The members
and participants on those servers are what Make NZLUG. Its not any more
complex than that because, basically, what else is there?  We exchange
news and views and questions and answers about linux on the mailing list.
We publish brief articles about coming events, etc, on the website. And
we're now contributing to a Wiki for all and sundry to use to their own
benefit.

What we're now trying to do is make sure that all New Zealanders are aware
that firstly this resource exists, and secondly that they are all welcome
to join in.  The more people that join in, the better off everyone will
be.

Going forward, all NZLUG participants get a say in what goes on. We don't
have any immediate plans to change that.

A seperate but related aim is to provide a channel through which regional
LUGs can help eachother out at an admin level.  The way we see doing this
is through a second, organisational mailing list.  Who uses this list is
basically up to the Regional LUGs themselves, all we're doing is providing
the mechanics.  If the systems provided help Wellington, Auckland and
Christchurch coordinate and plan simultaneous Installfests or we even
manage to go as far as to set up a 'National Linux Promotion Day', then
we've exceeded all expectations. :)

So... hows that?

Cheers
Mark.