[wellylug] NZLUG discussion

David Murray newslists at electronincantation.net.nz
Sun Jul 10 19:04:26 NZST 2005


On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 17:05, Mark Foster wrote:
> *much useful if somewhat cynical-looking content snipped*
> 
> I'll try to identify specific questions that need answering, and answer
> them as best I can.
> 
> > To what extent are non-Aucklanders actively involved in the NZLUG? And
> > to what extent are non-Aucklanders represented on the committee?
> 
> My answer to the first question above is, 'does it matter'?

Yes - of course it does, if you are serious about your desire for NZLUG
to shake off the perception that it is biased towards Auckland.



> This is quickly followed by 'there are a number, but i've never bothered
> to count'.

Perhaps you should do some research...?



> Frankly NZLUG as it stands at the moment is represented by those who
> actually show interest, and take part.  I've never bothered to audit where
> contributors are from, as i've generally assumed that most of them are New
> Zealanders - and thats as much as i've ever needed to know.
> 
> I know for certain that there are Aucklanders on NZLUG - becuase I live in
> Auckland, and i've met a few of them.  I also know theres at least one
> active member from Christchurch (Nick Rout) - only because i've
> corresponded with him in the past.  Again, 'dunno'.
> 
> Answer to the second question: "What Committee" ?

Why do you expect the LUGs to affiliate to NZLUG if it be chaotically
organised?



<snip>

> > What percentage of ACTIVE members of the NZLUG do NOT live in the
> > greater Auckland district?
> 
> As above - don't know. Has never mattered.

Perhaps it does now.



> > I would respectfully suggest that many things have changed since NZLUG
> > started - not least being the development of active regional LUGs.
> >
> > And therefore, the role that a national LUG should have, is to provide
> > support and resources for the regional LUGs. It should not function in
> > the same way as a regional LUG.
> >
> > Such a national organisation should have its committee made up of
> > elected representatives from the regional LUGs - not just from Auckland;
> > and should not have a bias in favour of any particular region.
> >
> 
> 
> Respectfully in response, whilst this may seem logical, it is also flawed
> by the fact that at least a couple of the regional LUGs pre-date the
> formation of NZLUG.

It is unimportant whether or no some of the regional LUGs existed prior
to the "formation" of NZLUG.

LOL - in fact such an organisation as NZLUG, going by what you have said
below, actually does not exist!



> NZLUG is not a 'national organisation' in terms of its formal status or
> haerarchy.

Then it should drop any pretence at being so.



>   Its simply a Group for Linux Users of New Zealand.  In the
> pure dictionary sense of the words and no more complex than that.
> 
> For this reason it has not required a 'committee' to date, nor any sort of
> election.  Outside of being a website and mailing list, it doesn't 'exist'
> as such.  But because of the website and mailing list, it does have an
> existance. And a brand name.

OK. If it exists, then you can tell us when it was incorporated.

If you cannot tell us this, then it does not exist.



> > BTW, any decisions about a NATIONAL LUG should involve persons from all
> > the regional LUGs making those decisions - not simply persons from the
> > Auckland LUGs!
> 
> Again, because noone else from the NZLUG mailing list has ever stepped up
> and said they'd like to take on responsibility for NZLUG - this isn't
> really on track either.  We have never assumed that NZLUG represents all
> NZ LUGs. Thats not where we are.  It is perhaps, something we could aim
> for - but as I have said many times, we're NOT trying to represent anyone
> but ourselves.

So what were you asking for in your original post to WellyLUG in this
thread?



> And 'ourselves' is essentially 'participants on the NZLUG mailing list'.
> Thats it.



> I'm all for a situation where NZLUG _could_ be said to have something of a
> nationwide representation.  This is currently not really feasible - but at
> the same time this is why I have approached WellyLug. Its something to aim
> for.
> 
> Noting again, that its simply about being a user group for NZ Linux Users.
> Nothing more sinister than that - and NOT a political entity. Just a forum
> and resource for Linux Enthusiasts.

OK. And how will that resource and forum be accountable?



> > OK - so you're not wanting it to change, or to grow, or to adapt to any
> > change or to take on a new role.
> >
> > That's how I interpret what you've just said.
> 
> 
> Not true - thats one interpretation, but looking at it from my side of the
> fence, NZLUG has already got a lot of potential in its current state. It
> just needs to change the perception that it is anything other than what it
> is - a Mailing list, a Website, and a bunch of likeminded people who
> participate in either or both.


But, below you say that NZLUG is more than just a mailing list, a
website and a bunch of Aucklanders.



> > To what extent does NZLUG *actively* function as a NATIONAL
> > organisation?
> >
> > What does it do nationally?
> 
> Its a mailing list and website. Neither of these are Geographic boundaries.

OK. So it does nothing.

Why, therefore, should the regional LUGs affiliate to NZLUG?



> It has not held events in parts of New Zealand other than Auckland,
> primarily because 1) NZLUG participants from other parts of NZ than
> Auckland have not yet stuck up their hands to organise something, and 2)
> Other Regional LUGs have filled the role of having events in their areas,
> which has contributed to the lack of hands raised as relating to 1).

OK.

If it is only focused on Auckland, then why all the bitching about the
rest of NZ perceiving NZLUG as being an Aucklander focused group?



> > Um, if it really IS a completely new and separate LUG for Aucklanders,
> > then shouldn't AuckLUG's website be http://www.auckland.linux.net.nz and
> > its email address be: lug at auckland.linux.net.nz - that is, if AuckLUG
> > really IS a completely separate organisation with no direct or indirect
> > control over the domain linux.net.nz and has been granted control over
> > the use of anything under the domain "auckland.linux.net.nz".
> >
> > It doesn't make sense for AuckLUG to have an email address that is not a
> > part of its own domain.
> >
> 
> Why not look at it in another light?
> 
> The owner of linux.net.nz (Nic Bellamy) has _donated_ the resources of his
> DNS and Listserver to AuckLUG.  The domain Linux.net.nz is a _damn good_
> domain for Linux related purposes.  Why incurr further cost on any one
> individual when we have a perfectly good name just sitting there?

Why should there be any further cost in administering subdomains of
linux.net.nz?

Simply point the subdomain auckland.linux.net.nz at one particular box
and let the admin for AuckLUG look after their own resources and mailing
list(s). How hard or expensive can that be?

I mean... delegating the DNS for auckland.linux.net.nz is easy enough to
do.



> If I recall correctly the NZOSS is or was hosting a mailing list for a
> smaller regional LUG.  Doesn't lessen the significance of the LUG involved
> at all.

True. But aren't you trying to get away from the perception that NZLUG
is just an Aucklander group?



> The way I see it 'linux.net.nz' has been made available to support Linux
> in New Zealand. Nothing wrong with using it.

I agree - nothing wrong with that at all - very generously donated to
that purpose.

So let's make that purpose happen.



> aucklug at linux.net.nz - auckland.
> nzlug at linux.net.nz - new zealand.
> 
> Any other LUG wanting an address under the domain, i'm sure, would simply
> have to ask.

Wouldn't it be better simply to grant them their own subdomain that they
could use as they please?



> Likewise for the subdomains used for web addresses - whatever.linux.net.nz
> can easily be mapped to you.
> 
> I don't see anything inherently wrong, as AuckLUG and NZLUG have a good
> relationship and willingly cooperate with eachother.  This is where i'd
> like to see the other LUGs be.
> 
> I clarify - NZLUG is not trying to assume any sort of control or power or
> anything else.

I didn't suggest that it was. :o)



>   Simply to become a LUG targetted at ALL NEW ZEALANDERS.

If that's the case then you're treading on the toes of the regional
LUGs.



> Regional LUGs continue to operate as they choose, with their own
> identities and purpose.   Individuals are encouraged to participate in
> both NZLUG and their local LUG - one gives them access to a larger
> knowledge base and pool of information. The other gives them the support
> of their local community and access to location-relevant information and
> events.  The two together strengthen our ability to support and promote
> Linux across the board.

And how could NZLUG do that without any formal structure or membership
or affiliation or accountability?



> > Shouldn't it be about co-ordinating and resourcing the regional groups
> > of NZers who are into Linux?
> >
> 
> Not necessarily.
> Certainly that is one concept that has been tabled, and theres nothing
> wrong with it.  In fact, thats essentially one 'defacto' position.
> However I see potential for much more.

Such as... what?



> To use the NZLUG Wiki as an example.
> If a Linux user anywhere in NZ needs help in setting up, say, the Asterisk
> PABX.  Theres heaps of documentation on this on the Wiki.

Nice to hear.

But there is usually more to an organisation than just its website.



> A member of NZLUG will know the information is there and can access it.
> A member of a regional LUG may not necessarily know that its there.
> Hopefully they will know that the NZLUG resource is there for them.  Thats
> what we'd like to achieve. Thats part 1.

Hmmm...

Sounds a little like a street with two pubs opposite each other, and the
first asking the other pub to get its patrons to go over and drink at
the first pub.



> Part 2 then gives them the choice of mailing list support:
> 
> - Local LUG list - local community support mechanism.
> - National LUG list - access to a larger number of people, basically.

Surely the regional LUGs are capable of supporting their own members.
And if not the leaders of the regional LUGs would know who to contact
for further information.

We wouldn't need everybody belonging to two lists - one being a
fire-hose and the other being a dribbling tap.



> >> The main reason its run the way it is now, is that no one else has yet
> >> stuck their hands up with suggestions and offers to contribute
> >> administratively.  Always happy for that to change :)

Contribute to what? You've said that all NZLUG is, is a website and an
email list.



<snip>

> However, looking forward we are wanting to set up NZLUG so that not only
> is it able to be a national resource, but that a component of our
> relationship with the regional lugs is an ability to coordinate our
> efforts - and this is part of why i'm approaching WellyLug now.

So make a proper formal proposal to all the regional LUGs for
establishing an organisation called the New Zealand Linux Users Group
that has a committee, and private membership, and membership consisting
of elected representatives drawn from ALL the various regional LUGs,
setting forth what you intend it to do and to be, and see if you can get
enough interest in properly establishing such an organisation on a
national level.



> I do have to ask tho - with a functional mailing list and website, and a
> Wiki - and an open discussion on the actual NZLUG list being the main
> facilitator of any major changes that we undergo anyway (thereby giving
> all participants the ability to put in their 2c, and no individual
> participant having any more say than anyone else), where is the need for
> any formal management? The status quo is working, because, basically, the
> LUG is self sustaining. Exactly how it should be, IMHO.

As NZLUG exists, a formal organisation could be established with the
name "New Zealand Linux Users Group inc" and suddenly the current NZLUG
would become irrelevant outside of Auckland.



<snip>

> To summarise.
> 
> NZLUG is non-incorporated, and informal.
> It consists of a Mailing List, Website, and Wiki.
> It is currently administered by Three of us:

<snip>



> And it does work.
> 
> NZLUG is simply all about the website, mailing list and wiki.

OK. So it's irrelevant outside of that context - even in Auckland.


<snip>


> A seperate but related aim is to provide a channel through which regional
> LUGs can help eachother out at an admin level.  The way we see doing this
> is through a second, organisational mailing list.  Who uses this list is
> basically up to the Regional LUGs themselves, all we're doing is providing
> the mechanics.  If the systems provided help Wellington, Auckland and
> Christchurch coordinate and plan simultaneous Installfests or we even
> manage to go as far as to set up a 'National Linux Promotion Day', then
> we've exceeded all expectations. :)
> 
> So... hows that?


Expect little, get little.

If you set forth to climb the highest mountain peaks, then you can
expect to show photos of the view from the top.

Why set so little a target as merely poaching members from the other
LUGs?


Regards,

David Murray


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