[wellylug] off-topic whining

[Daniel Pittman]

Jethro Carr <jethro.carr at jethrocarr.com> writes:
> On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 13:03 +1200, John Barstow wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I just convinced my wife (who has been using Linux for over three
>> years) to come to the next meeting, it wouldn't matter if she was the only
>> woman there.
>>
>> Now she feels really unwelcome. I'm not even sure she's going to come to
>> SFD thanks to the hostility. She's not offended by the "guys", she's
>> offended by the hostility evident in the replies to Daniel. As am I, I'm
>> unsubscribing now.
>
> hi John, Well, that's a shame, but your loss.

I think it is a loss to us all: while I can't specifically point to the future
contributions that John, or his sadly unnamed wife, would have made, it seems
to me that it shames us all to have lost their involvement because we cannot
be polite to each other.


> Most people at Wellylug (and SFD which is a large event that Wellylug is
> only a small part of) are pretty decent people.
>
> However, when people on mailing lists start accusing guys who are respectful
> of women of using sexist language it tends to get people pretty angry.

Respectfully, I don't think that is either a fair characterization of my
statements, or that anger is an excuse for the extremely aggressive, and
inaccurate, responses that came back.

> Every time someone says that, what it really says to me is: "you're one of
> those guys who scares women away from IT" and it's actually really offensive
> to me.

I am sorry you feel that way: I am not trying to say anything personal about
you, and it is certainly not something I intended (or expected) to offend.

I like to think that, as adults, we can have disparate views on difficult
topics without resorting to violent name-calling or other abusive behaviour.


> That's one of the major complaints I have with linuxchix - I support the
> idea of getting women involved in IT and to prevent sexism, but they always
> discuss the problem as in all males are deterring women from IT and open
> source which actually puts me off their cause since it's implying that as a
> male, I'm responsible for it.

I would like to discuss this further, since this is clearly a failure of
communication: that is unequivocally *not* the message that I, or the people
I know involved in the LinuxChix programs, are trying to send.

If it is the message you are hearing, though, then perhaps talking about it
reasonably would let me understand how I was failing in that communication,
and to be able to effectively talk to you about the actual message I wanted to
send.

What I don't want to do is try to discuss this and end up with the same sort
of violent shouting-down that /is/ disruptive and distressing to everyone, on
which basis I am not presently trying to engage further with you here.


> Anyway, I apologise if I came across too aggressive but Daniel touched a raw
> nerve with myself and others on this list.

I have to say that I am, in fact, quite insulted by the response from Spiro
Harvey, which both Callum Grant and you have supported.

I have no problem with disagreement, and as I have previously said I didn't
want to make a big issue of this; I would have been quite happy to say my
little bit, listen to other people disagree, and leave it there.


Instead the responses were predominantly — Mark Foster being *the* exception —
aggressively, ad hominem attacks that ignored my immediate actions, by
claiming that I did not answer the question, and by claiming that I was here
to troll the list and stir up trouble, disregarding my significant
contributions[1] over the last three and a half years.


I don't demand that people support my views, or agree with them, or stay
silent when they disagree.  I do try to avoid insulting people, though I
acknowledge that may be an unintentional consequence, and I regret that.


In closing, however, I would like to add that I do feel the discussion is
relevant to the LUG at hand; the charter is:

 * To exchange Linux and Open Source software knowledge and experience.

 * To encourage the usage of Linux and Open Source, by introducing it,
   explaining it, and helping people to install it.

 * To have a good time, meet other people and to make friends.

To me, it is an important part of meeting that second goal that I address
issues that I consider important in encouraging the use of Linux and FOSS
solutions, and I do consider redressing issues like exclusionary language to
be part of achieving that goal.

I also consider it quite important to the third goal, to enable people of
*all* backgrounds, however diverse or different, to have a good time here.


Again, I don't demand that other people agree with me, or that they change
their views and approach just to suit my tastes.  Disagreement is fine.

All I ask is that we, as a group of adults, are willing to engage in civilized
discussion and debate, even if the topics involved are complex and, yes,
potentially filled with emotion and hurt on *all* sides.

Regards,
        Daniel


Footnotes: 
[1]  I hope they have been valuable contributions; certainly, at this stage
     I have no reason to suppose otherwise, although y'all are welcome to tell
     me if I am just a pompous windbag. ;)

-- 
✣ Daniel Pittman            ✉ daniel at rimspace.net            ☎ +61 401 155 707
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